The following are experiences that various members of the community would like to express and share with others. Feel free to share anything you feel might be valuable to yourself and/or to others.

New submissions should include:

Don't you think much of what we are talking about is semantic?

lion: No, I really don't. It is not that we use different words to convey the same meaning. My sense is that there is GREAT difference in our understandings. This is why this kind of communication is so difficult to accomplish. We think we are talking about the same things when we are NOT.

I'm the lawyer and if the law as a profession stands for anything it is distinctions without a difference. There's not much difference between being "inspired" and "choosing".

lion: There is all the difference in the world from my perspective. Being "inspired" comes from something above and beyond my concept of self, whereas "choosing" is a function that my self does. These are very different experiences.

I know you believe in a "spirit" that motivates everyone. I don't. Perhaps the spirit inspires and you choose. Strikes me as a difficult distinction.

lion: Whether we believe it or not has NO bearing on whether it is TRUE or not.

I am not sure what example is provided although I have learned much from your example, from the design of my web page to talking with my son.

lion: The specific "example" in this case is what any one of us can choose to do to provide feedback to someone else. The point is that no one is choosing to provide such feedback to me.

You are an interesting guy with a different take on things. We disagree, but you're right, you have things to teach me. I hope visa versa.

lion: I learn all the time, from every encounter and experience. If our communications ever fail to do this they will simply die and I'll choose to focus on other things.

I agree it is mind over matter, but the minute an independent, godlike spirit comes in, individual responsibility is diminished if not eliminated entirely. I think we are all responsible for the things we choose to do.

lion: OK, then take the next step ... it is SPIRIT over MIND! Spirit is not some godlike separate thing. We are spirit NOW.

The point of self image psychology is that we literally create ourselves.

lion: Disagree. We don't create ourselves. We simply are, we exist. What we create is our experience, NOT our beingness.

You say you are extreme and you are because that is how you see yourself and you behave according to the belief. As long as you think the way you do, you will be the way you are. If you are satisfied, there is no need to change. If not, you must explore the insecurities that keep you from being the person you want to be.

lion: You have to go beyond thinking to find awareness. It is not something that one "thinks about". It is awareness that performs the act of thinking.

lion: I am WHAT I AM. What I believe that I am is just my present picture or understanding of what I am. It is incomplete, and in many cases downright incorrect ... yet it is ever changing.

Always is a long time. You will until you change your mind, if you do. Perhaps your view of the masses is so negative, you go quite far to be different. In one sense we are, like snowflakes, all different. We have different experiences and takes on things. In the big sense we are identical. We live and die.

lion: It has nothing to do with changing my mind. This is my awareness. My view of the masses is not negative. I simply observe ... it is not for me to pass judgement. I KNOW from firsthand experience that the factors that move me are not the same as those that move most others. My world, the illusion that I live within is different from that of others in major ways.

lion: The fact that we live and die, that we have similar bodies, that we breath and eat, that we have brains and think ... do NOT make us IDENTICAL in any way. To me the definition of identical is "exactly the same". This is simply not true about us in nearly every respect. In the biggest sense, we are spirit ... we are parts within THE ONE, and we are eternal beings.

Standards are concepts we create to make ourselves crazy.

lion: That is one experience of them. They can also motivate us to apply ourselves in a manner that is the best we can be. Making ourselves crazy in using them is ABUSE, not a wise choice of use.

The idea of perfection is a case in point. Perfect to whom? Judging yourself harshly seems like something that creates negative self imagery.

lion: I did not experience this as negative at all. It forced me to apply myself in ways that resulted in greater results and achievements than my peers.

I agree these standards came from within you. I only say they are more bother than they are worth.

lion: I do not agree with that conclusion at all. They are useful tools in guiding ones behavior and setting priorities for one's focus.

The primary purpose of class structure, social hierarchy or whatever you call it is to separate high from low, the worthy from the less worthy.

lion: This may be one of it's side effects. Surely it is NOT the purpose of hierarchies. If it were the primary purpose, why would any people that consider themselves to be free accept it and allow it to exist?

Hierarchy means comparison and the standard we use is the collective standard based on the ability to accumulate money.

lion: We have very different meanings for hierarchy. In general, hierarchy is just a means of arranging and giving structure to a part of a system or to a system as a whole. Standards for comparison are a completely separate construct.

lion: Take an ant colony as an example. It is extremely hierarchical. The result is a complex community of ants that is very effective at performing specific functions. There is nothing inherently wrong with this.

I know there are other standards. The poor artist can consider himself better (more intellectual) than his rich patron, but the need for the transaction and the comparison stems from negative collective imagery.

lion: Here again, you talk of comparisons. This has nothing to do with hierarchy. Comparison happen without regard to any structures that the individuals belong to and participate in.

Your position is like Freud's who saw us as driven by innate drives (libido etc) but whose innate drives can be restrained by creating defenses through psychoanalysis.

lion: I see no need to "restrain" or "create defenses". My focus is on greater expression of the ONE SPIRIT that we are all individual pieces of. Intuition is an "innate drive" for me. Being moved to express spirit is another one. It seems that nearly all of Freuds innate drives were things that needed to be controlled. Mine are positive things that need to be allowed to express. This is a big difference.

If you can control an innate drive, it seems to me it is no longer innate or no longer beyond one's control. If you can adjust your behavior, you can adjust your behavior.

lion: I cannot "control" intuition. I cannot "control" the expression of spirit through me. I can only "choose to allow" them to flow forth.

When you say something is a "natural part of behavior" you imply it cannot be changed. Psychological motivations can be changed.

lion: YES, the motivations can be changed. However, the mechanism that operates is a natural function. It exists as it is, independent of how it is used. My point was that WE collectively allow advertisers to ABUSE this mechanism by controlling motivations. This is stupid, and creates many problems in our world.

We are different and some people can do different things better than others. That does not mean those whose abilities are more helpful to society should be rewarded with better houses, cars and other indicia of their ability.

lion: That is a different issue altogether. How we reward people is extremely important if we want to guide them to make choices that are in the best interest of the collective. The natural tendency seems to be that self-interest comes first. But, to create a society, self-interest must in some ways be subordinated to the collective interest.

We can be different and the same at the same time. A society must recognize that.

lion: I still have no idea as to what specific things constitute "being the same" from your perspective. Please elaborate. What specifically does this mean?

lion: However, we can objectively and subjectively weigh the impact that any individual has on the collective. Those with greater positive impact, those that do more with their abilities to help others do SERVE society better. That does not make them "better" in any absolute sense but it does make their overall VALUE greater.

Why bother?

lion: We bother because that is how complex systems grow in directions of greater collective utility. Unless feedback mechanisms operate to guide the system to greater and greater collective expression of spirit ... there is simply no hope that society will ever improve.

I say society is the way it is because people think humanity stinks and they seek to distinguish themselves from that despised mass.

lion: Hmm... I personally don't think or believe this. Further I do not know a single person who does. So, who are these people that think in this manner?

There is something inherently wrong with distinction and recognition if it means some people end up sleeping in streets.

lion: I see NO connection between these two things at all. This first is not the cause that results in people sleeping in streets, period. It may be a contributing factor that allows it, but there is no causality involved.

It is one thing to say "good job" another to turn that "good job" into a reason for hierarchy.

lion: You have so many negative constructs tied to the word "hierarchy". These are not part of the definition of the term itself. Hierarchies are a natural way of organizing parts within a complex system. They are neither good nor bad in themselves. This distinction only comes from HOW they are used, not from what they are.

Reality is a difficult subject. Perhaps you are the one living under an illusion. That is something that can be said about any of us.

lion: We are ALL living within our own illusions. But this is the "reality" that we experience daily. The fact is that this is different for each of us ... sometimes so different that our "individual worlds" have little to nothing in common.

We are not drops of water unless we see ourselves as such.

lion: Disagree. We are what we are, regardless of what we see ourselves to be. The later only deals with our awareness of what we are not the reality of what we are.

There are few things in life where an either or position is valid, but we either control our behavior or we don't.

lion: Disagree. Some things we consciously control ... others we do not. Wisdom is knowing the difference.

I am not sure what you mean by distinguishing what we experience from how we experience. I am talking about behavior.

lion: If our experience is that we are not in control of most of our behavior at a personal level ... I don't consciously control body functioning, it just happens; I don't control thoughts, they just show up in my head; I don't control emotions, I just feel them; I don't consciously control decision processes, I observe decisions that I appear to make; etc ... then, why would I begin to think that I can control higher level behavior that extends beyond me?

We either control our behavior (i.e. create a better world) or we can't. If we can, let's talk ways and means. If we can't, it doesn't matter.

lion: A better world will be created when individuals make better choices concerning where they focus their time and attention and what they actually do. Spirit drives us to such expression via the natural functioning of universal laws of expression.

More distinctions I do not grasp. We can be aware of a lot of things-take arms against a sea of troubles-or not. Let's just say you believe we are aware.

lion: That is the biggest problem we face. You have no construct for awareness ... you have no personal experience of what it is. It is not something that you can think about because it is beyond thinking. It is not a matter of belief at all. Beliefs are within the realm of thought. Awareness simply IS. Until you experience that there is no common ground for understanding on this topic.

You seem to want to change collective behavior as do I. Like you I am more or less content with my individual behavior. If you didn't want to change the world, you would not work as hard as you do on the search for center.

lion: NO, not at all. I want to show people a better way of expressing spirit on an individual basis by my personal example. When I find others who choose to do the same, we will collectively start to express in a new manner that could not be done before. What this will be I do not know. However, I trust that greater expression of spirit is the natural direction of evolution. That is the whole purpose behing existence.

How do you tell the difference between the spirit and other forces as motivations.

lion: You just KNOW. It is that simple. You know because you have found your personal connection to the ONE.

These strike me as individual perceptions which may or may not be so. I think a belief that a spirit (God) protects us quite destructive.

lion: It is not some separate spirit that protects us. We are that spirit. That we see ourselves as many and not THE ONE, is the illusion realized.

It eliminates responsibility and has us damaging the environment and other species. Many people excuse our activities as God's will. I see it as insane.

lion: Yes, the concept that you speak of does exactly that. But such is YOUR interpretation (and the mass interpretation for the most part). It is not my personal interpretation. I take full responsibility not only for my activities, but for the whole world as well. This responsibility empowers me to act in ways that make a difference.