*** Channel created at Saturday, November 9, 1996 6:40:04 PM
*** lion has set the topic on channel #wunjolion to
lion: OK, this is the second Community Forum sponsored by In Search of Center.
wunjo: ok back:)
lion: The topic tonight is MANIFESTING THE IDEAL COMMUNITY.
lion: There was a paragraph writeup on it in the Community Forum section of our Newsletter.
lion: http://www.redshift.com/~beyond/NEWS is the URL in case any of you have not been there.
lion: This session will be logged and posted there probably by tomorrow.
lion: Let's start with What is the Ideal Community?
lion: Must people live together to manifest it?
wunjo: no
lion: Or, can part of the spirit of community be created via the interactions we have over the internet?
LadyNada: well this channel can be a community
lion: Is a sharing of resources and services required?
wunjo: that is what is great about energy it works all over
Solan: sorry, my mac crashed.
wunjo: hi Solan thanks for coming:)
lion: Or, is a sharing or ideas more important? ... and further a supporting and encouraging of one another's ideas?
Solan: what's the subtopic???
wunjo: the question is do we need to live together to manifest community
lion: It seems to me that manifestation requires DOING SOMETHING based on the ideas, not just thinking about things.
Susanrose: well, I know some ppl who meet in real life for gatherings after forming a cyber community
Susanrose: they sort of make themselves an underground culture
lion: Community is a joint creation. It must foster an environment that encourages and allows individuals to express whom that they are, not only on their own, but in conjunction with others.
lion: What shortcomings does the current society have that prevents it from being an ideal community?
Susanrose: I do not know if that detracts from the neighborhoods, local community that they should focus on... or if they would have been loners or not involved anyways
lion: What services would you like to see be made available that simply are not there right now?
Susanrose: sharing of child care
wunjo: too much ego!
lion: Hmm... I have no "neighborhood". I've lived in a house for 7.5 years and don't know a single person within a mile of where I live, other than my wife.
wunjo: welcome jo jo: thank you, wunjo!
Susanrose: lion...do you have neighbors?
lion: Unfortunately I think it is that way for many, especially in California.
Susanrose: well when you have lousy weather, you have a good excuse not to meet neighbors
lion: People live in houses and apartments on my block. I don't know who they are, so I would not consider them neighbors.
lion: In Monterey, we have GREAT weather.
Susanrose: but in calif... don't you cut grass or wash cars or something?
lion: Yes, but I never see anyone. Even walking the dog daily, I don't meet people.
Susanrose: hmmmm dog walking ought to do the trick :)\
Solan: yeah, meeting folks seems to be half the battle.
lion: I guess being an introvert doesn't help.
Solan smiles
lion: Especially a BIG TIME introvert.
Susanrose: lion, why don't you have a pot luck picknic...invite all your neighbors to MEET one another
Solan: I have a lot of experience with intentional community, where people come together around a certain understanding/desire/belief.
lion: Maybe that is why I spend so much time writing. Susanrose: if no one shows, then so what?
Solan: so what? That would be a big emotional event, for me anyway!
Susanrose: Solan, have you had a good experience with it?
Solan: Yes, and no.
*** Signoff: jo (Love to you all ........)
wunjo: ahh tell us
Susanrose: I mean nothing ventured, nothing gained Solan
Solan: Sometimes it takes awhile to figure out if you 'fit in' with the community.
Susanrose: I met a guy who thought intentional community meant polyamourous coupling
Solan: Yeah, SR, that's in someways true, but there are so many stinkin' (sometimes) EMOTIONAL obstacles to community... these get overlooked very easily, IMHO.
Susanrose: I thought it sounded emotionally confusing
Solan wows
Solan: what it do you mean SR?
Solan never did THAT kind of community. :O
Susanrose: I think he was looking for a primary lover to start a community of open relationships
Solan: My wife and I left our last experience because the founders had no intention of sharing power or control...
Susanrose: I thought it may bring about alot of tricky karma I am not ready for :)
lion: How would each of you define "community"?
lion: Especially "intentional community"?
wunjo: well I was involved in a womans group and found out that they were not into walk your talk. And I once lived and worked on a resort that wanted to be a community.
Solan: Hmmmm.... a group of people who know each other and share something in common.
*** crimson (~jbixman@slip26.cedar.tcd.net) has joined channel #wunjolion
Susanrose: hmmmmm...Well, this guy who wanted to start an intentional community with me would not even help me get to the garage to have some work done on my car....
lion: It seems that it calls for a coming together of a group of people to share in one anothers lives in a manner that supports the welfare of everyone.
Solan: well, we know what he wanted to share. !
Susanrose: I do not think that a community member should turn their back on someone who really needed help..
wunjo: welcome Crimson
Susanrose: Community members help each other out.
Solan: Does it not depend on what the 'focus' of the community is?
crimson: namaste all
Nancy: 'evening, Crimson
Solan: For instance, there may be a 'therapy' community of people who all go to the same therapist, and they may have social gatherings, etc. but that commitment may not extend to helping one another with errands, etc.
Susanrose: solan, yes, the focus matters....I could not be in a community with fundamentalists, no matter how nice or helpful they were
Solan: I like the feel of your def, Lion.
lion: Whether this coming together is around a set of beliefs, or a common purpose, or just a caring love and concern for one another doesn't really matter other than determining the means by which the community interacts, and how it focuses its efforts.
Solan: I think successful communities know what their focus and committment levels are, and have them fairly well defined.
lion: Agree Solan ... that is VERY important.
wunjo: well that is what we want to do
Solan: So many people try and start someting with very fuzzy ideals, and so attract nonaligned people easily.
lion: One of my main problems with our current society is that we have no real contract with one another.
Susanrose: lion, have you had any interesting definitions from your web page question of the month replies?
Solan: Who's we, Wunjo?
Solan: yeah Lion.
wunjo: Lion and I
lion: The replies are posted. Only 4 or 5 so far. You can reach them from http://www.redshift.com/NEWS/news2.htm
wunjo: well all who want to do it:)
lion: Most of next months newsletter is done. We expect to release it in a week or so. Around the 20th.
Solan: Right!
wunjo: mostly being there for one another.
Solan: What the focus of your community? Do you yet know?
lion: Of those SR, one is yours, one is wunjo's, and one is mine.
Susanrose: :)
lion: Ultimately, I think of community in grand terms ... on the level of the country, and even the whole world. My sense is that major social changes are necessary to allow the promised Aquarian Age to be manifest.
Solan: Well, unfortunately, I have a promise to keep, so I must head off. :(
Susanrose: global village
wunjo: yes Global
lion: We have chosen to live during the transistion period.
Susanrose: good to meet you
Nancy: Night Solan
Solan: Check out http://www.inxpress.net/~joyfire/ekone... its the pages for a Ranch community I am connected with, out in WA state.
Susanrose: ok
Solan: They have a summer horse camp for kids, and host all kinds of people as they pass thru.
wunjo: thanks for coming nancy go see our site:)
Solan: Good luck in your forum. Lemme know if you meet again... Community is one of my life purposes and I want to dialog lots on it!
lion: Those of us already moved to do something are starting to discover who we are and the roles we came to play ... and are starting to make the connections required to allow us to fulfill the purpose that called us here to begin with.
*** Solan has left channel #wunjolion
Susanrose: Is it your purpose in the web page to build a community that shares a real home?
wunjo: that's me:)
lion: Exactly where this will take us is still uncertain. But our souls call to us, they move us to DO what we must do. And, following their direction we will indeed succeed in our missions. For spirit has already set the destiny ... we have only to enact her wishes.
Nancy: :)
wunjo: very nice lion
lion: SR don't know that yet. But at some point it seems that personal contact ... and living in the vicinity of one another will be necessary ... though perhaps with many groups in different locations.
wunjo: yes I like that idea
wunjo: groups around the world.
Susanrose: :)
lion: There are many open questions. What services are required? How are these generated and distributed or shared? What decisions must be made? Who makes them and by what processes? Should everything be democratic and require a vote? Who has the power to do what? And how do we assure such power is not misused?
Susanrose: I think a leader should be elected
Susanrose: I also think that everyone in the group should be able to have a reasonable income
lion: Another major issue is how do we "manifest equality"? Is it fair that one persons labor is worth $10 per hour while anothers is worth $100,000 per hour?
Susanrose: to be able to bring into the group
Susanrose: no, but I would not like to be carring the lion's share (excuse the pun) of bill paying
wunjo: LOL!
lion: I agree that leaders are needed. But they must be people who can fulfill the position because they want to SERVE in that capacity, NOT because they like POWER.
wunjo: I know what you mean
Susanrose: yes, it is an honor to serve
Nancy: How would you discern the difference?
lion: Don't worry SR, I carry more than my share of bill paying... enough for 2 or 3 people. LOL!!!
wunjo: AHH YES the power thing
lion: We need better means for evaluating people. My sense is that various practitioners of metaphysical arts could be used to ensure people are suited for such positions by their temperament, character, and abilities.
Nancy: How could you be sure of their "art"? And what of individual choice??
lion: However, before we get to that, we need to define what we would expect such people to do. Until we know that, we have no basis on which to judge whether they are suited or not.
lion: Individuals could choose by volunteering. The selection process should have multiple people practicing their "arts" so that an overall assessment can be made.
lion: My sense is that at some level we as individuals already know where we fit in the larger scheme of things. We decided on our role at levels of which we are not now conscious. We just need some help in consciously getting there.
Susanrose: lion, I feel you should be close enough to a fairly large city for some of the members to be able to commute to work, and be able to bring a substantial cash flow into the group for development
Susanrose: I would not like a kibbutz type of environment, where we all went out to pick grapefruits
wunjo: I understand that Susanrose
lion: That might be true, unless we could come up with a way to provide services remotely so that proximity didn't matter that much.
lion: No kibbutz. I don't do gardening or pick fruit. Sorry. LOL!!!
wunjo: LOL!:)
Susanrose: I had a girlfriend who joined her boyfriend in isreal on a kibbutz
Susanrose: and that was her experience
lion: wunjo likes gardening though. She can do my share. LOL!!!
wunjo: I feel if wecan get the right people we can do wonders!!!!!!!!!!:)
Nancy: Wunjo, what is the purpose of this group?
Susanrose: where do you live, wunjo?.... are you in calif too?
wunjo: yes it is!!!!:) :) :) :)
lion: So, does anyone else have a sense that we will see major social change by 2002 or so?
wunjo: nope Aspen co but am from ca.
lion: VERY MAJOR change?
wunjo: YES!
Susanrose: sorry
wunjo: sorry for what
wunjo: Nancy to create Great things
wunjo: I believe we can:)
Nancy: Yes, I mean your statement.....
Nancy: If we get the right people we can do wonders
lion: What services should the community provide to its members? What actions can we take RIGHT now to start doing this ... actions that empower us to make a difference in one anothers lives and in the lives of all others we touch as well?
wunjo: geting the right people
Nancy: I wondered what direction you were going toward, what type of wonders
*** LadyNada is now known as CosmicLove
wunjo: PEACE
lion: How do we walk our talk? How do we demonstrate by example that there is another way to be that allows our spirits to express more openly and fully?
wunjo: HARMONY
Nancy: So peace is the primary objective??? Excuse me, I'm new
wunjo: oops
wunjo: sorry thank you for the question
lion: No. The primary objective is TO ENABLE SPIRIT TO BE ABLE TO MORE FULLY EXPRESS IN FLESH THROUGH US.
*** CosmicLove is now known as CsmicLover
wunjo: ya that's it :)
wunjo: to be FREE
wunjo: we want to change the way we live now
lion: We start doing that by acting individually in a way that allows us to express all that we are, and then in couples and small groups that enable us to do things collectively that we could not do alone.
wunjo: because we KNOW it can be better
lion: Eventually we grow to larger and larger groups, specializing as dictated by an overall plan that consciousness has set.
wunjo: it is already happening
wunjo: we just need to join in
lion: We don't have to know the answers. We only have to trust spirit ... and, in particular, to trust that she is moving us to do what must be done. Though, we also must have the courage to ACT and DO what she moves us to do.
lion: Namaste crimson! I missed when you joined us.
wunjo: Lion hello LOL!!!
wunjo: Lion:) I welcomed Crimson :)
wunjo: crimson are you there:)
lion: It seems that having open lines of communication is crucial. I'm finding that the internet is very well suited for providing an infrastructure that supports fairly rapid communication globally.
wunjo: yes isn't it great:)
wunjo: so what should our next step be?
lion: Another thought on who should have what offices. Given that we just finished an election, it seems appropriate. A few years ago, I came up with the idea that each candidate should be allowed a 60 minute video.
Susanrose: The primary objective, imo, is to manifest love through form.
wunjo: ahhh
wunjo: yes I like that
Susanrose: we are spirits here to learn a human experienc
wunjo: lion:)
Susanrose: not humans trying to be spirits
lion: 15 minutes on what the job requires. 15 minutes on who am I and why am I qualified to do it. 15 minutes on what are the major issues/problems. Final 15 minutes on what I will do about them.
lion: Agree Susanrose. That is why our purpose is to allow spirit to more fully express in flesh. By doing so, we more fully express whom that we TRULY are.
Susanrose: :)
wunjo: :)
lion: And yes, LOVE is the answer to EVERYTHING!
wunjo: Susanrose I am happy we met:)
Susanrose: I am so sleeply,,, late for me here...I think you are beautiful folks
Susanrose: I wish we were all in Pittsburgh
wunjo: LOL!:)
Susanrose: it would be great to have a community with you
wunjo: yes well lets start
wunjo: I think we need to bring the people together first
Susanrose: well, you ought to pick a common visualization of a symbol
wunjo: then we can move together
lion: THANKS Susanrose. We'll start by doing whatever we can via this medium. Then we'll see where else the adventure takes us.
Susanrose: if we think it, they will come... (field of dreams....giggle)
wunjo: :)
Nancy: :)
wunjo: GREAT:)
Susanrose: good night all!
lion: No, no, no... IF WE BUILD IT, they will come!
Susanrose: smile
wunjo: That is what I think we just need to think it
Susanrose: I'll take one with a jacuzzi
Susanrose: haha
Nancy: Good night, Susanrose
Susanrose: bye now
lion: THINKING IS NOT... NOT... NOT... NOT ENOUGH.
wunjo: Natural hot springs!!!!!!!!
wunjo: I KNOW :)
wunjo: we will do!!!
lion: We already have castles in the air. It is time NOW to build the foundations.
wunjo: ha before you go susanrose what do you think would be a good question of the month for next month?
lion: wunjo: You could think "there is a million dollars in my hand" until the day you die. That would not be enough to ever make it so.
wunjo: something about community
wunjo: ok
wunjo: LION I really did not mean that
lion: Nancy: you're being very quiet???
wunjo: I know we need to do more:)
Nancy: yes
lion: Why?
wunjo: what do you think Nancy
lion: Come on, I know you have ideas on this ... but don't let me push too much. LOL!
wunjo: what happen to crimson???
Nancy: well, are caps equalivent to shouting as in some areas or...
Nancy: used for emphasis?
wunjo: no not here
Nancy: I wasn't sure if I was being shouted at or not!! LOL
lion: I use them for emphasis.
Nancy: ok, phew
wunjo: we are very loving beings!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
lion: Sometimes people hit the caps lock key.
Nancy: yes
crimson: Namaste spirits, your intentions are honorable, Peace and Love
*** crimson has left channel #wunjolion
*** CsmicLover has left channel #wunjolion
Nancy: I think it extremely important to define those foundations!!!
lion: I know first hand that thinking is not enough. I've probably done more than most do in a lifetime ... maybe several lifetimes. :)
Nancy: So if thinking is not going to do it and foundations must be built...
lion: Yes. Sounds like a topic for a Newsletter Feature. Defining the Foundations. Think I'll start it in January and request feedback/inputs.
Nancy: then isn't clear definition the first order?
Nancy: of business??????
lion: YES!! Clearly defining what we want is essential.
wunjo: our question of the month was what you thought was involved in an ideal commiunity
wunjo: we are trying to get feedback so we can make Foundations
lion: Part of the problem is that the foundations require that we have a common understanding of what we want society to be. The foundations are simply the framework we must build to support that Vision of how society functions.
wunjo: we need help
Nancy: Yes, the common understanding seems a goal not easily reached in one month or so
lion: It seems that it will be more productive if we work this in a non-realtime mode.
Nancy: It seems to me that in order to reach common understanding....
lion: My sense is that it would help if I come up with a strawman framework that people can then comment on and contribute to. It would provide more focus and give people more time to really think about the issues and what they want to say.
Nancy: aspects for commonality first might be tossed into the arena to be agreed upon
Nancy: yes, that's an idea...
Nancy: I was thinking of someone mentioning childcare earlier this evening....
wunjo: Nancy do you have a web page
lion: I have a 100 page book at my site that covers many of the principles involved and provides ideas on how things should be made different. That was written 3 years ago. I'm probably ready to take a fresh cut at it.
Nancy: Not something you even think of if you don't have children
wunjo: I do childcare:)
Nancy: ok
lion: She has the Bookstore in the Community Services section of the Newsletter. :)
Nancy: metaphysical books mostly
wunjo: oh!!! thaT IS YOU:)
Nancy: LOL. I'm it :)
wunjo: gREAT:)
wunjo: I think susanrose can help alot she has a good network going
lion: It seems like it would help to prepare a page on the topic in advance so that people have a better idea of what we will be discussing.
Nancy: Yes
wunjo: ya that would be good
lion: If they didn't see it before coming, we could send them there to read it before they get into the discussion.